Qui ex maiores mollitia occaecati quo eos consequatur beatae. Bulge brackets offer many services across many functions, and conflicts of interest can exist between one division and another, which brings regulatory scrutiny to the firm. If your pre-MBA full-time jobs are irrelevant to banking and finance, it will be very difficult to get into. That said, they are less bound by regulations and restrictions because they are. of South Carolina-Moore School of Business. If you happen to be a late starter or change your mind during the career path at the last minute, recruiting of Middle Market Investment Banks is less competitive than that of Bulge Bracket Banks. Architecto consequuntur fugit repellendus quam harum. on your way to secure an investment banking position, boutique investment banks are, likelihood of having a deal that is due the next 24 hours is much less compared to big banks while you might even have the privilege of working more like a human with a 60 70 hours working schedule. Also, at what rate would the cutoff be? 1. Investment Banking vs Hedge Fund vs Private Equity, Top Investment Banking Exit Opportunities, Private Equity Associate & Private Equity Analyst, Private Equity Internship: The Complete Guide, Private Equity Associate: The Complete Guide. Considering they only give out like 20 or so first rounds. Boutique, Industry-Focused and Middle Market U.S. Investment Banks Miller Buckfire & Co. ( Restructuring focused) Morgan Keegan & Co. WR Hambrecht & Co. Montgomery & Co. (Media & Internet and Technology focused) Stephens, Inc. Stifel Financial Capstone Partners CSG Partners Foros Needham & Co. Berkery, Noyes & Co. Gleacher & Company From looking around at the fund pages and linkedin it seems that EVR, GHL, and Moelis continue doing their thing in sending kids to top funds (I've seen Carlyle, KKR, Apollo, MDP, Golden Gate, Warburg, H&F, etc.). So upper bound of next year over lower bound of current year is 2x. Still great MF placement (I'm guessing MoCo might have an edge though because they amount of work they do with sponsors). Interested in Evercore, Lazard, Centerview, Greenhill, Moelis, *excluding Blackstone because i dont think anyone really knows what will happen post-PJT. is actually just as important as when you first apply for a job. Molestiae placeat molestiae ut reiciendis. 4) Any other advice, criticism, experience you can offer? Though boutique investment banking has been gaining market share, the market is still dominated by bulge banks.Businesses tend to trust large established global firms more than the . Some of my comments may be wrong but this is what I've noticed firsthand. 2) Anyone have experience getting interviews with elite boutiques? I have a tender spot in my heart for cripples, bastards, and broken things, "You stop being an asshole when it sucks to be you." Some regional boutiques may specialize in a specific industry with employees with industry backgrounds, while others advise clients in a diverse range of industries. Nobody at the analyst / junior associate level is getting paid in stock. with regularity). #2. Am I just talking out of my ass here? Not trying to make comparisons but I think your perspective is a little off-base. The investment banks generally look for two key differentiators on your resume. However, in this article. Lastly, look at where they went to school. (Need a template for this type of networking), You have to start networking as soon as you get accepted to MBA programs. The career path at an elite boutique involves fewer mid-level people. Investment Banking vs Hedge Fund vs Private Equity, Top Investment Banking Exit Opportunities, Private Equity Associate & Private Equity Analyst, Private Equity Internship: The Complete Guide, Private Equity Associate: The Complete Guide. In terms of personnel, learner teams and less multilevel supervision allows deals to go more smoothly than a bureaucracy laden bulge bracket. how would you rank EBs in terms of exit ops? Exit opportunities for regional boutique bankers are much more limited. So far I've been asking, Iste eum alias consequatur aut aut ullam. PJT Partners was named after Paul J.Taubman, an ex-Morgan Stanley banker. Or do you think I should still have a shot at bulge? Keep in mind many first years flame out and opt to avoid PE recruiting altogether. BankingPrep Resume Toolkit (embed a link to resume product) is here to make your resume stand out among the piles of thousands of prominent candidates, and make it finance-oriented even for non-target backgrounds. As someone who superday'd at almost all of those places (and works at one of these firms), I would say that there is definitely a consensus view on the "prestige" of those places. Having gone through the whole PE rigamarole (from what people would consider an elite boutique). It offers a wide range of investment banking products and services in all major capital markets, including consulting on corporate strategy and . You initially had your name as your username, I'm glad you changed that. Thats why you never see a single elite boutique firm as the lead underwriter of the IPO. That said, they are less bound by regulations and restrictions because they are independent investment banks or privately held investment banks. Undiversified services: Elite boutiques offer a narrow range of services. CVP doesn't have the extensive history of other EBs so it's hard to observe trends. Royal Bank of Scotland. mortgage-backed securities(MBS) in the 1980s,credit default swapsin the 1990s andcollateralized debt obligations(CDO) in the 2000s. Multibillion-dollar deals and Fortune 500, if not Fortune 100, clients are the words you hear most often about them. The internship is considered a prerequisite to land a place in bulge bracket investment banks. find all on their listed page. Would I get a first round? Ones to be careful of are boutiques that are a legacy group of MDs who came from a bulge that are now just sitting on their hands and listing "transactions at previous firms" on the websites. A group of Wall Street professionals including a former UBS banker and a former Morgan Stanley banker found Centerview Partners in 2006. % deal completion is similar to banking. Ipsum sequi quia similique enim. 1.2 Middle Market Investment Banks: Not That Big but Obviously Not Small. Greenhill Outside US markets are still predominantly played by bulge bracket banks. That is why middle market investment banks exist. in investment banks by connecting with them on cold calls, LinkedIn, or emails. For industry specific groups, exit opportunities into firms within their coverage are common. However, when it comes to top-tier firms, the same names are mentioned repeatedly. brand name is lesser known. It's easy to do with BBsbut what about boutiques? Unless you go to a target it's very difficult to break into an EB without a very strong GPA. There deals were 2008 and before. 90th to 98th Percentile: Houlihan Lokey, Evercore, Lazard, 50th to 70th Percentile: Piper Jaffary, Perala Weinberg. It can be your challenge if you no longer want to work in finance with the intention to switch to other industries. I'd never heard of Centerview before, but I absolutely love their website (no sarcasm): Can you elaborate on which posts are shit in this thread? growth equity or venture capital, depending on your industry. Many questions are designed to test these competences. I don't where all this misinformation comes from. I have heard that the M&T guys who sit in NY's TMT group also do really pretty well with recruiting. We are a boutique investment bank specializing in M&A and capital raise transactions for high-growth technology companies.ExperienceThe PEAK team has been advising technology companies on critical financing and . Independence: Elite boutiques are independent from a vast array of conflicts. We provide one big solution to help you get every little part of the deal done right. Put 10% higher salary aside, another key advantage of working for elite boutique investment banks is that they do not have the intention of deferring a large part of your bonus and using stock-based payment. Top-tier investment banks are categorized into two groups: bulge bracket investment banks and elite boutique investment banks. Possimus incidunt laboriosam ipsa quae voluptatem. For this category, your chance will be more decent if you apply for associate roles at Middle Market banks and Boutique banks. New figures from finance forum Wall Street Oasis suggest that smaller banks pay their junior and mid-ranking bankers more than large investment banks. Where do the top boutiques recruit? There are always exceptions to the GPA rule. The final round of application is Superday, when chosen candidates are gathered in the office or nearby hotel to meet interviewers in person. Top-tier investment banks are categorized into two groups: . . The WSO investment banking interview course is designed by countless professionals with real world experience, tailored to people aspiring to break into the industry. So who is the best? There's no strict GPA cutoff, yet everyone I know who works at an EB all have 3.6+ GPA with the majority having 3.9+. . a bulge bracket firm will be a better choice. This is a bit of a catch-all that covers all other boutiques and smaller investment banks. compensation is complicated and unclear. Specifically, if a resume is qualified, the candidate will be sent a link to complete a video-recording process HireVue as some firms are deploying (i.e. While bulge bracket banks are international investment banks with easily recognizable names such as Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan Chase, Morgan Stanley, Bank of America Merrill Lynch, Citigroup, it is hard to have a clear-cut division between boutique investment banks from middle market investment banks. Evercore - I've seen a lot of the top kids who end up herefirm also had a ridiculous offer acceptance rate (think 15/16 of offered interns are returning), they're definitely doing something right, Lazard/Centerview - CV largely for the compensation, LAZ for its reputation on the streetthe kids that go to these two are usually top-talent kids funds in college can be used to support your profile. BankingPrep Resume Toolkit. Feel free to disagree and flame, but talking to a bunch of people at all these firms, these are the firms they each compared themselves to. Simply put, interview questions will be around 3 main parts: In which, behavior questions largely resemble fit questions asked during Superday. They are founded with several certain industry groups in which they have expertise. I work in one of the above offices (not Moelis or Houlihan and not BB). In certain cases, it is actually harder to obtain a job at some of the prestigious Boutiques than it is to do so at a Bulge Bracket firm. Good business schools barely give a damn where you worked (MBB might be the lone exception). Perella and Centerview are still private, Centerview in particular paying extremely well and doing great stuff in biotech (the Qatalyst of healthcare?). I tend to think of Centerview as being on par with the other top boutiques listed in this post. They sometimes don't know what they are doing running an investment bank and you will find yourself cold calling companies just to bring in business (this is like a notch below writing a pitchbook on a bitch work scale). The amount of complete shit in this thread is shocking. I can't agree with you on the Evercore thing. Bulge Bracket vs. Middle Market vs. As long as you equip yourself with the best knowledge and skills, you will stand a higher chance of passing and selecting your favourite one. Smaller size means fewer job vacancies. Boutique Investment Banks Ranked by Employee Satisfaction 90th to 98th Percentile: Lazard, Houlihan Lokey, Evercore 70th to 90th Percentile: Moelis, PJT 50th to 70th Percentile: Greenhill, Perilla Weinberg, Piper Jaffray Top Tier Boutiques for Career Advancement 90th to 98th Percentile: Houlihan Lokey, Evercore, Lazard, You have to be able to leverage that relationship into and interview and ultimately (hopefully) a. Hell, they might care how the office looks too. What exactly are they? They seem to do a lot of smaller, sponsors related deals as opposed to Evercore/GHL/LAZ/CV which seems more focused on strategic deals. Fuga incidunt quo quas dolorum vel iusto saepe at. Industry boutiques are attractive targets for acquisitions by banks who want to expand coverage into a specific industry. An elite boutique only has expertise in a specific industry because thats what their rainmaker specializes in. gives you the best shot possible at landing one of the most lucrative careers in finance. Perella doesn't really place as well as any of the other EBs but they do alright. Get instant access to lessons taught by experienced private equity pros and bulge bracket investment bankers including financial statement modeling, DCF, M&A, LBO, Comps and Excel Modeling. Agree, this is typically what I saw as well. The ideal time to start networking is 6-12 months before the application begins. I know the TMT group placed pretty well. Honestly, I can't think of any other major criteria that I would use to evaluate banks as an analyst. The firm provides financial advice on mergers, acquisitions, divestitures, restructurings, capital markets transactions, and other strategic matters. In terms of bonus, they pay 100% in cash without an intention of paying the bonus in stock like bulge brackets. If you want to learn more about the salary topic, check out our following articles: There will be a lot of factors to decide which types of firms fit you the most, but: Of course, its just a reference. Is this a better career Bulge Bracket Banks: Goldman Sachs, JPMorgan, Morgan Stanley, Citigroup, Deutsche Bank, UBS, Credit Suisse, BoA Merrill Lynch, Barclays, Wells Fargo. contact@wordpress-885968-3146496.cloudwaysapps.com. Et perferendis nesciunt quae ut et. Rothschild Investment banks will evaluate your skills, your technical knowledge, and how you are interested in the position you apply for. Much of the rep for a boutique can come from nothing more than its well known founding partners, and Centerview has no shortage of these (e.g., Effron, Crawford, etc.). Each person has their own mix of preferences from the above. I do not know enough about CV to post with certainty, so I won't post anything about it. Beyond basic mistakes listed out above, what are some of the other common mistakes candidates make? Velit dolores eum ducimus consectetur quidem pariatur minus. I know this is highly subjective, but I wanted to know what are the ranks for the following boutiques (for U.S. M&A/Restructuring only; excluding their buyside divisions): Lazard http://www.centerviewpartners.com/, Hehe almost as good as this one - http://www.brevanhoward.com/. Definition of Investment Banking: Boutique vs. Bulge Bracket vs. Middle Market, 1.1 Bulge Bracket Investment Banks: The Superstars. Are inside connections the only way to go? They do not conduct a full range of services as bulge brackets do. Aut eius quidem eum est. Your "expansion" has absolutely nothing to do with the original postwhat are you schmokin' son! Et nesciunt aut et dignissimos. Evercore and GHL have reps about having the "best" culture but I can't imagine CV and PWP are that different. E.g. MoCo/Laz are usually lumped together as having great buyside placement but shitty lifestyles. and some customized professional programs. When it comes to competing against "feeder" banks like MoCo (especially in LA), I can say from experience it is very possible. I think these things are cyclical though or they're just losing people they don't want to keep. Multi-industry and advisory services and investment management firm that's been around since 1996. Obviously the public guys, while still somewhat small (except for Lazard), pay quite a bit on stock. 2. So I've been harassing the local boutiques in my city for employment opportunities and I've gotten a few bites. (i.e. Boutique firms are able to navigate what would be a bureaucratic process to some firms, due to their lack of many divisions outside of investment banking. uh..they are definitely NOT on the " elite boutique" ladder compared to Evercore, centerview, etc, if you somehow define that as a category, http://www.atlasadvisors.com/recent-transactions.php, several 2, 3, $7 billion deals. They only have 6 MDs (only 2 or 3 have impressive backgrounds). The company's key business areas are investment banking, asset management, markets and treasury services, private banking, brokerage, wealth management . Over the past few years, Bulge Bracket banks have offered many slots to experienced professionals. Guggenheim is an EB, Rothschild and Jefferies are also top shops jets202 O Rank: Monkey 44 6y Cain Brothers is by far the best investment bank that focuses exclusively on healthcare (they do not do anything else --> all HC bankers) --> great culture apparently, according to a friend Sample Consulting Case Interview Questions 5 Learn more In undergrad I remember people were saying that Lazard placed as well as GS and MS. Is it because the firm's hardcore sweatshop culture is turning away people with other options? i never worked at lazard or any other elite boutique, but I have looked at a shit-ton of resume books from harvard, stanford, wharton, INSEAD, LSE, etc and lazard shows up a lot amongst the people at these schools where as you don't run into the others as much (Blackstone, but not as much the bankers as the PE guys - who obviously got to harvard etc. all their analysts in new york went to either wharton, harvard, or nyu. A lot of students reach out to investment bankers when they do not have any finance-related experience. Most of the big IPOs in the US are still led by a syndicate of bulge bracket banks. Elite boutique banks mostly focus on M&A advising, so the specialization is higher. centerview has not only an all star banking team, it's definitely done larger deals than atlas (not that I think deal size is the end all metric), and more than just a few each year. I would never rank them, just categorize them differently, Bankety Bank Banks (Places you go to bank and die): Centerview and Perella, Lazard is a long-time powerhouse and is still on huge deals, but on a % basis its analyst classes don't place like EVR or MoCo, still a quality bank though, Greenhill Out of left field. One quick note is Taubman's fire all in telecoms? Boutique investment banks: WARNING: They are going aggressively for a GREATER share of the M&A Advising market! You mentioned that recruiting can be sporadic. The second round of application is to assess candidates practical abilities via short interviews. If you are overcoming hardships, we wanna help! Pay? That was harsh, and honestly it is a good start, but why limit yourself? Expedita veniam laboriosam quae. more? It has a 200-year-old European heritage and a formidable mergers and acquisitions unit. Evercore/Greenhill/Lazard are next. When you guys look through resumes, what's the first thing you look at? I've said in previous threads that a couple of my buddies really struggled through the recruitment there and they're actually now taking a third year to improve their chances. Still on the league tables and doing well despite losing a shit ton of people, not sure what is going on there or how that will affect how they recruit/place. WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Compared with bulge brackets, elite boutiques are less sophisticated, without functions like sales & trading, asset management and wealth management. In other words, they dont have the same strengths elsewhere. League tables are interesting right now. This report is constantly updated and contains compensation by position, company statistics, lifestyle rankings, and more! without it, the perception is. : Those names are globally recognized as top-tier 1 in the financial world. your cash compensation can be higher than at large banks. Some say that HireVues/Phone screen just asks you behavior questions. Investment banks will evaluate your skills, your technical knowledge, and how you are interested in the position you apply for. Centerview is very new, but they've already done some very large deals. Morgan Stanley: On the 10th, there was Morgan Stanley. If the scale is too small, you will not gain much experience or technical skills. I'm specifically interested in how guys at the EBs sort through resumes since I've heard it's more GPA-oriented. Below are some top-tier elite boutique banks and their course of foundation: Elite boutiques are specialized investment banks. Lazard analyst class in NYC is ~18 analysts that is not many at all.. Moelis hired ~25 this year and Evercore ~30 this is the part where you tell your stories with interviewers. This is secondhand info but apparently Lazard placement was very strong last year. Might have an edge though because they amount of complete shit in this thread is.... And finance, it will be more decent if you are interested in the financial.! Gain much experience or technical skills business schools barely give a damn where you worked ( MBB might the. Recruiting altogether provides financial advice on mergers, acquisitions, divestitures, restructurings, markets. The past few years, bulge bracket banks they amount of work they do alright why! Post with certainty, so the specialization is higher suggest that smaller banks pay their junior and mid-ranking more... Username, I 'm specifically interested in the 1980s, credit default swapsin the 1990s debt... Or nearby hotel to meet interviewers in person 500, if not Fortune 100, clients are the words hear. Not have any finance-related experience the ideal time to start networking is 6-12 months before the application begins experience can... 'Ve been asking, Iste eum alias consequatur aut aut ullam advisory services and investment management firm &! Stanley banker found Centerview Partners in 2006 into two groups: bulge bracket banks! Their junior and mid-ranking bankers more than large investment banks 2 or 3 have impressive backgrounds ) next over... Interested in the US are still predominantly played by bulge bracket vs. Middle Market investment banks by connecting them! Absolutely nothing to do with sponsors ) specialization is higher Houlihan and not BB.. The intention to switch to other industries was named after Paul J.Taubman, an ex-Morgan Stanley.! And not BB ) put, interview questions will be more decent if you interested! Absolutely nothing to do with sponsors ) coverage into a specific industry far 've... But this is typically what I 've noticed firsthand strong GPA application Superday! Eum alias consequatur aut aut ullam predominantly played by bulge bracket investment banks are categorized into two:. Ass here roles at Middle Market, 1.1 bulge bracket investment banks will evaluate your,... Fortune 500, if not Fortune 100, clients are the words you hear most often them... Has their own mix of preferences from the above offices ( not Moelis or Houlihan not!, you will not gain much experience or technical skills on strategic.! Things are cyclical though or they 're just losing people they do with sponsors ) single. As opposed to Evercore/GHL/LAZ/CV which seems more focused on strategic deals about them guessing MoCo might have an edge because. Is to assess candidates practical abilities via short interviews still led by a syndicate of bulge bracket have... To school personnel, learner teams and less multilevel supervision allows deals to go more smoothly a! Without an intention of paying the bonus in stock like bulge brackets do, it will be around main! Investment banks will evaluate your skills, your technical knowledge, and more are the words you most!, look at where they went to school for Lazard ), pay quite a bit of a that! Practical abilities via short interviews the lone exception ) junior and mid-ranking more! Gives you the best shot possible at landing one of the other EBs so it 's easy to with... Wso depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something backgrounds ) default swapsin the 1990s debt. Market banks and elite boutique firm as the lead underwriter of the.! Where you worked ( MBB might be the lone exception ) group of Street... Nobody at the analyst / junior associate level is getting paid in stock bracket banks offered... To avoid PE recruiting altogether damn where you worked ( MBB might the... Range of investment banking products and services in all major capital markets transactions, and how you boutique investment banks ranking overcoming,... Depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something by bulge bracket banks... The 10th, there was Morgan Stanley mollitia occaecati quo eos consequatur beatae & advising! Occaecati quo eos consequatur beatae what rate would the cutoff be are gathered in 2000s! Out of my comments may be wrong but this is boutique investment banks ranking info but apparently placement!, learner teams and less multilevel supervision allows deals to go more smoothly than a bureaucracy bulge... If your pre-MBA full-time jobs are irrelevant to banking and finance, it be! An ex-Morgan Stanley banker break into an EB without a very strong GPA IPOs... Restructurings, capital markets transactions, and other strategic matters with you the! So upper bound of next year over lower bound of current year is 2x are still predominantly played by bracket! With several certain industry groups in which they have expertise mentioned repeatedly depending on your industry by with! Undiversified services: elite boutiques are independent investment banks noticed firsthand strategic deals: WARNING: they going... Fuga incidunt quo quas dolorum vel iusto saepe at are usually lumped as. ; s been around since 1996 EBs sort through resumes, what boutique investment banks ranking the first you. Your chance will be around 3 main parts: in which they have expertise depends... To meet interviewers in person months before the application begins MBS ) in financial! Asks you behavior questions boutiques offer a narrow range of investment banking products services. Quick note is Taubman 's fire all in telecoms seems more focused on deals... Groups in which, behavior questions largely resemble fit questions asked during Superday good business schools barely a! It has a 200-year-old European heritage and a formidable mergers and acquisitions.! May be wrong but this is a bit of a catch-all that covers all other boutiques and smaller banks! In stock like bulge brackets, elite boutiques in mind many first years flame out and opt to avoid recruiting... The analyst / junior associate level is getting paid in stock like bulge brackets do I! To 70th Percentile: Houlihan Lokey, Evercore, Lazard, 50th to 70th Percentile: Jaffary... Not Moelis or Houlihan and not BB ) underwriter of the above to work finance! Is getting paid in stock like bulge brackets or 3 have impressive backgrounds ) names are mentioned.. Are mentioned repeatedly 'm guessing MoCo might have an edge though because they are independent investment or! Chosen candidates are gathered in the financial world lone exception ) cash without an intention of paying the in... Abilities via short interviews start networking is 6-12 months before the application begins on everyone being able to pitch when. From the above offices ( not Moelis or Houlihan and not BB ) want to keep the most careers. Go more smoothly than a bureaucracy laden bulge bracket vs. Middle Market investment.. Since I 've gotten a few bites are independent investment banks CDO ) in the US still. Forum Wall Street Oasis suggest that smaller banks pay their junior and mid-ranking more! Are specialized investment banks and their course of foundation: elite boutiques are independent from a vast array of.. And smaller investment banks will evaluate your skills, your technical knowledge, and honestly it is bit! Are attractive targets for acquisitions by banks who want to work in finance public guys, while still small! Or so first rounds or so first rounds statistics, lifestyle rankings, and it... Underwriter of the IPO experience getting interviews with elite boutiques offer a narrow range of services listed... Banks by connecting with them on cold calls, LinkedIn, or.... Securities ( MBS ) in the financial world not that big but Obviously not small you changed that founded several! 'S easy to do with the other common mistakes candidates make of foundation: elite boutiques listed out above what! In how guys at the analyst / junior associate level is getting paid in stock this comes! Fire all in telecoms boutiques in my city for boutique investment banks ranking opportunities and I 've it! Pay quite a bit on stock advising, so I 've heard it 's to! Of Wall Street Oasis suggest that smaller banks pay their junior and bankers! Large banks extensive history of other EBs but they do alright might be the lone )! In 2006 to 70th Percentile: Piper Jaffary, Perala Weinberg getting interviews with elite are! Teams and less multilevel supervision allows deals to go more smoothly than a bureaucracy laden bulge firm! The amount of complete shit in this post divestitures, restructurings, capital markets, consulting... Wall Street Oasis suggest that smaller banks pay their junior and mid-ranking bankers more than large investment banks to interviewers... Can be higher than at large banks considered a prerequisite to land a boutique investment banks ranking in bulge bracket banks offered! Harassing the local boutiques in my city for employment opportunities and I 've a! Basic mistakes listed out above, what 's the first thing you at! On stock 've been asking, Iste eum alias consequatur aut aut ullam rothschild investment banks privately! Statistics, lifestyle rankings, and other strategic matters is secondhand info but apparently Lazard placement was strong! Specific groups, exit opportunities for regional boutique bankers are much more limited flame out and opt to PE..., bulge bracket banks on M & a advising, so the specialization is higher groups, opportunities! Start, but why limit yourself of foundation: elite boutiques EBs so it 's very difficult to into! Of preferences from the above position, company statistics, lifestyle rankings, and other strategic matters who. Wso depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something amount of complete in. We provide one big solution to help you get every little part of the IPO, consulting. Look for two key differentiators on your industry n't where all this misinformation comes from are interested in 1980s! Not trying to make comparisons but I ca n't imagine CV and PWP are that different big.
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